A pistol just sucks in that situation. Patrick explains in his treatise that, A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. Damage: 55. So Marines are now trained to simply kill them. Weband 45 expands slightly more than 9 mm This also depends on specific round construction. Request product info from top Ammunition companies. Heating effects, occurring mostly around 2.45 GHz (which is the frequency used in microwave ovens) Ionizing effects, which can damage human body and cells; Here is a picture of how the radiowaves penetrate the human body according to the frequency. The .50 This includes victims shot by suspetcs and suspects shot by our officers. Tests show that while it travels at 1,154 feet per second at 500 yards, slower than the .223 at that distance, the AKs bullet can deliver 370 foot-pounds of force, more than the AR. Even a frontal gut shot must penetrate seven or more inches in slender adults for reliable incapacitation. If, God forbid, you are ever in a situation where you are required to use your handgun, there is, to put it mildly, a great deal at stake. If Im in my own home in a self-defense scenario, at any distance, Im armed with a 12 gauge, and the whole pistol capacity and power debate is moot. More rounds the better. But its definitely not easy to carry concealed (especially in hot weather) and Im big guy. Everyone talking about knock down power verses speed seems like. I never had much faith in a 9mm til that incident. I am old school. Only two factors are within your control: the location of the wound and the amount of tissue destroyed. The rifle round, which is longer than a pistol projectile, likely also began tumbling after its point collided with his hip. I would love to get my hands on the data and map it by cartridge. In case you didn't get the memo, the FBI's ballistic testing labs are the best in the world, and they've been doing it for a long time. I know .45 is a good SD round against the two legged threats. Even after suffering multiple 9mm gunshot wounds, victims are capable of fleeing considerable distances. Immediately retired the Glock 17 and requalified with a Glock 21 Gen 4 after a long break. With that in mind The most lead I can force through the air, the better. .22lr is an assassins round yet we all have fun plinking around with it. There were 5 gunshots to his chest. It is really scary to think that a jury would put any weight behind what he says knowing that the rest of my life will be determined by the crap spewed forth from him. So in other words, Science is also getting a kick back just so the 9mm gets so called, scientific proof! In this dangerous time period, an officers adversary can continue his deadly actions against an officer. In the past, one of the standard tests performed to assess bullet and cartridge performance was the penetration of pine boards of various thicknesses. Colt Defender 3" 45 ACP; Colt Gov't 70 Series; Kimber Warrior, w/ Rail; Kimber Warrior II; Kimber Super Carry Pro; Kimber Super Carry Ultra, 45 ACP, 3" Remington 1911 R1 Enhanced 5" 45 ACP; Ruger SR1911 Commander 4 Colt Model 1903 Pocket Hammerless the is bone different muscle mass fat and other bonds in our bodies Sudden, immediate and even instant death. It doesnt get more damaging that that. Remember, people dont have health bars. One single shot from nea I guess I might be a little old school, 1911 45, M1 Grand in 3006, or M1A in a 308, these are older, but they have not made better guns or calibersI still have a glock and some 9s, but only because If I do have to use it I dont want to lose my 1911, and yes I have a AR15, but still like the A1 more. Either work for me, and if I had to choose only one it would be 9mm just for the capacity. During 15 years of LE, I have seen literally dozens of gun shot wounds. Thats because the 7.62 is almost twice as massive as a .223. It is also logical to assume that when the larger round enters a major body organ, the negative impact upon that organ will be more significant. And while its not the final word on wound ballistics, its an important contribution to what should be an ongoing discussion. Practice more and dont be proud you cant shoot. Opinions all ! You get the idea. A .45 ACP will encounter greater resistance than a 9mm, but it also carries more weight, albeit at a slower velocity. It was modified to accept a detachable magazine and equipped with a folding stock. All animals died pretty much on location. The amount of energy a bullet radiates into a target is determined by a simple formula taught in high school: Its the product of one half the projectiles mass times the square of the velocity. One other thought dont ever modify the trigger on your self-defensive gun if you ever have to use it in those situations and lawyer finds that out he will own everything you have. The energy delivered to the target increases geometrically along with increases in mass, and exponentially with increases in velocity. A 9 is a great backup. The only way to ensure immediate incapacitation is to shoot the adversary in the brain or upper spinal cord (i.e., central nervous system). I totally agree about shot placement. I know a LEO that works in Mendocino County CA. Not concerned with concealed carry. If I wanted to hit a little harder, I would maybe look for a WC .45 mold in the 220 to Lexipol. Now let me add a little something about 9mm vs .45. Just wanted to throw that against the wall. Of handgun owners alone, 63 percent owned these for the purpose of protecting themselves against other people, with another 20 percent owning them for protection against animals. are 9mm rounds substantially more accurate than their larger caliber brethren? As a medical provider who fractured his back, making a house call in Alaska-dealing with chronic pain issues-I have talk to our local Police Captain. 45 stopping power! A .20 gauge double barrel should be good for home defense day for a woman or a guy. Maximum velocity is achieved only at barrel exit, then slows during flight through the viscous median known as our environment (air). Did you know that Durys has been in business since 1959? Still, no one should select a caliber based on the assumption that it will expand sufficiently to incapacitate an assailant. I can say with great certainty that many animals dont just simply fall over and die. When the. The beautiful country in south east Asia. So its all about what fits they individual and what they are comfortable and accurate with. We traded all the 9s some years ago for the 40 which give knockdown power plus multiple rounds. Because bullet strikes to the torso will not immediately incapacitate an adversary and will not knock him to the ground, police officers need to use bullets that will neutralize an adversary as quickly as possible. Another deputy acquired a .45 and was having trouble being able to qualify with it. You shoot when you can, at the place you most want. Hence poor shot placement, causing a miss or worse the poor animal suffering a slow painful unnecessary death. Clothing fibers can wrap the nose of a projectile, preventing expansion. In the black powder days hollow points had not been invented yet and most bullets were round nose lead so the larger heavier bullet hit harder. Im not going to begin to discuss the variables between the two calibers and cartridge designs but statistics released from DOJ shows that larger cartridges are more effective at stopping Humans per round on target. Sudden, immediate and even instant death. Scalise, a Republican from Louisiana whose condition has been upgraded to serious, suffered broken bones, ruptured blood vessels, and shredded internal organs. Still, the research is not widespread and a great deal of it is not terribly relevant for the average person searching for a reliable self-defense weapon. Liver problems can also be caused by a variety of factors that damage the liver, such as viruses, alcohol use and obesity. This is important because of permanent cavitation: The greater amount of tissue that is destroyed, the greater chance of incapacitation, all other factors being equal. Thanks. The 9mm travels a great deal faster than the .45, with average muzzle velocity averaging between 1100-1200 FPS. 9mm Luger offers greater magazine capacity and less recoil/more weapon control at a lower cost. I can load my rounds as hot as I want, and often do. thats a monster, 67 about 260 and has hands as big as a base ball mitt, when he carries concealed, he goes with a Glock 43 which looks like a toy in his very large hands. Because its difficult to pack enough explosive powder into a cartridge thats supposed to fit within the shooters pistol grip, handgun designers typically try to increase firepower by sticking a bigger piece of metal on the end of a round. How does air resistance have ANYTHING to do with the terminal ballistics as they relate to penetration? You, ordinary walking around citizen are likely to be accosted from very close range, within say 10 feet to up close. The threshold for lung damage occurs at about 15 psi blast overpressure. What do you think of the Shield or do you know anything about it? What it really boils down to is budget, not protection. The former is by far the leading reason for handgun ownership. I imagine humans are the same. He gets there with his partner and the front door of the bus opens. Mamma and papa went getting along I guess. Riley Bowman is the Director of Training at ConcealedCarry.com and the Host of the Concealed Carry Podcast. A 4 inch Redhawk 45 colt loaded with 24 grains of H100 under a 335 grain Cast performance sledgehammer should be good against the largest carnivore Todd. The original design and purpose of the 1911 45, was perfect for its knock down power. 45 muzzle velocity is 500 feet per second and the 9mil is 1500 fps. If it doesnt get deleted for my impatience with thoughtless comments. The one he found had the best chance was the .357 magnum. first handgun i ever fired was glock27 .40SW she was snappy at first but 16 years later and after shooting lots of .45 and 9, i am back to .40SW for HD purposes. The amount of energy deposited in the body by a bullet is approximately equivalent to being hit with a baseball.. Select the option or tab named Internet Options (Internet Explorer), Options (Firefox), Preferences (Safari) or Settings (Chrome). Shot placement is often cited as a consideration when choosing the right handgun for self defense and for good reason its definitely important. Wow now this argument of 9 mm verses 45 acp is stupid. The 9mm isnt a garbage round but feeling better with these 230 grain Winchester Rangers loaded on my side. for all the same reasons. It got up and walked about 25 yards before falling. .223 Rem in 5.56 NATO is OK. If you can fire without remorse. Ballistics engineers try to balance speed, mass, and surface area to make the most effective round possible. Thats what I pack in the deep woods. The average criminal etc. Of course shot placement is important. 10 Best ways to Make Money on Social Media and not waste time. So you can rely on us to provide quality pre-owned weapons backed by our famous guarantee. .45 ACP Damage Body Shots Head Shots Sounds Firing (9mm) Firing (.45 ACP) Reloading Swapping To Rarity The Vector is a rare SMG that spawns mainly in Hatchet Cases in the Hydra Bunker and rarely in the Storm Bunker (10% chance). Hit your enemy Quickly and Hes Dead. also carry a lcp ruger 380 in a desantis pocket holster, covers the trigger guard real nice. 2. Then get ready for a gunfight. All of this leads directly to the question of handgun wounding factors: the effectiveness of a handgun, lethality by caliber, and stopping power are all important considerations when purchasing a firearm for self defense. The biggest determining factors were and have always been budget and of course, what the inept FBI is carrying. Lee reloading gear. The 1986 FBI Miami shootout between eight FBI agents and two serial bank robbers was the deadliest and most violent shootout in FBI history. Its disturbing to me that we give up performance for comfort. Not aim shoot. The 9 has more A but the M of the 45 has more than enough to overtake the 9 even the newer ones. One of the best ammo in the market right now is Hornady Critical Dury which is 135 gr. My personal opinion is that the military has found that many recruits are unable to accurately fire the .45 and cannot manage the recoil. Also, I have pretty much explained what you have just said. One week later the detective in charge advised me that papa lived, walked out of the hospital and back to Mexico. I however still allowed to carry a 45 and, will as long as I am able to. The earlier FBI testing left no doubt that tissue displacement was greater with the larger rounds. Most of these wanna be gangsters are cowards and are used to shooting at people who dont have guns to shoot back. Just one article about that here: http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2015/07/08/u-s-military-makes-monumental-shift-hollowpoint-pistol-ammunition/. So, yes, they are looking at it with the assumption that modern 9mm JHP bullets perform very similarly to .40s&w and .45acp, and thus will move toward 9mm loadings for sidearms. However, caliber is at least as important and should not be ignored when choosing a weapon. According to mamas statement, Papa got crazy and chased her into the bath room. But you still want the best caliber possible, because while people are disposed to fall down when shot, not every target does. And speed kills barriers. Before he did this there was almost as many different firearms within the department as deputies. Why arent both so much better than .223? /9mm has a lot more options when it comes to ammo but I prefer my Springfield XD .45 or my Kimber Custom II 1911. No regrets. Any round can accomplish that, even the much-maligned .22. Robert MacNemerra knew nothing about firearms but his decision that the AR-15s chrome lined bore and chamber was a needless waste of money brought a whole lot of grief to a whole lot of people. Previously, the classic .45-caliber Colt 1911 was one of three pistols that Raiders were allowed to carry, but now the 9mm Glock 19 is the only pistol that Marine special operators can take into battle, said Maj. Nick Mannweiler, a spokesman for Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command. Practice drawing the weapon, aiming it, and firing. G27 with the 10 for EDC and G22 with 22 count mag for inside the house, 40 doesnt seem to have that much more pop than 9mm to me, and i have relatively small hands. Because recoil obviously cant be observed and you have to shoot someone huh, I heard of a police officer shooting a dog 6 times with a 9 mm before being able to incapacitate the dog. Episode 424 is the perfect companion to this post because we discuss caliber and it's relation to hit factor! Can someone comment on this? .45 in Nam and owned one for several years. WebActually, three different types of pressure change appear: (1) shock wave pressures or sharp, high pressure pulses, formed when the missile hits the body surface; (2) very high pressure regions immediately in front and to each side of the moving missile; (3) relatively slow, low pressure changes connected with the behavior of the large explosive Bullet was military Ball. Real world combatants or keyboard commandos. F=MA is not applicable. A .223 is just 55 grains. I dont want a light fast bullet that will over penetrate and possibly injure or kill an unintended. And here is where we get to one of the most important distinctions between military/LE and self-defense use; its also where I have some practical experience, having twice been the victim of home invasions, as well as having to defend myself in public in 4 other separate incidents. I know I prefer .45ACP. Give me a break!! Developed in the early 1960s, the .223 round was first used in Vietnam. I agree with your bad guy statement, but when I was training to become a Paramedic and obviously most of the training was done in the ER so we definitely saw damner everything you can imagine especially a lot of gunshot incidents and what I can tell you was that we were able to save and keep more bad guys alive who were shot with 9mm multiple times than those who had been shot 1-2 times with a .45. Shorter barrels or longer range of initial impact will likewise decrease the possibility of expansion. 9mm and 45 ACP are popular for all the reasons listed above. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rwYqGmVvzQ, http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1165386, http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=91, http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34714, http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf. Taurus 45 Copyright 2023 Police1. Which is better? F=MA is F=MA. Love it. Both are great bullets, but not really comparable. I much prefer the 45 acp and have used it on game from deer to moose and it always was my go to gun. SGT SmallwoodUSMC/LTC SmallwoodUSArmy retired. So if my pill hit my target in a less than optimal body section with ball ammo, Ill opt for the bigger ball every time. Any gun between 9 mil and .45 caliber is fine if you can conceal it, and employ it quickly and with reasonable accuracy. There is no substitute for experience. Now for long engagements that are seen more in military ops and where fire suppression matters most I prefer 9mm. The .45 knocked him on his ***. A true warriors gun. Damage: 23. Semiautomatic rifles dont shoot the largest bullets on the market. Do any one you know carry just ball rounds in their handguns? Shot placement vs. Note how velocity is squared, and mass is halved. So youre that guy safe at home on the computer. The pistol with speed loaders will get me to the riffels then game over if not over yet. Your tax-deductible donation to The Trace will directly support nonprofit journalism on gun violence and its effects on our communities. There have been several attempts by ballistics engineers to increase the wounding ability of a round. .45 Actually killed to individual who I shot vs the others who all but one lived. Im sure many hunters can attest to the expansion of rifle bullets recovered from their game. We report stories that would go untold. Look for a box or option labeled Home Page (Internet Explorer, Firefox, Safari) or On Startup (Chrome). I find that there is a difference when using 9mm vs .45acp. But in the Kaos of combat (especially at dark:30) your intended target isnt usually going to present itself and just stand there for your perfect shot placement. Dr. Peter Rhee is a trauma surgeon who operated on victims of the 2011 shooting at a political event in Tucson, Arizona, in which six people were killed and 13 wounded in a hail of 9mm bullets. Rifle rounds have an elongated, oblong shape and so they often tumble. The HRP is concerned with long-term health consequences of radiation exposure such as cancer, as well as adverse effects to the central nervous and cardiovascular systems. My $.02. Thats why were here right? Platt was killed at the end of the gunfight, but not before unleashing deadly mayhem. 0.177" Steel air gun dart will penetrate to shank, in skin, at 120 ft/s. Web45 ACP Ammo | 45 ACP Ammo for Sale | Ammunition Depot 3/2/2023 ON SALE Ammunition Bulk Ammo Bulk 223 Ammo Bulk 9mm Ammo Bulk 45 ACP Ammo Bulk 380 Ammo Bulk 308 Ammo Bulk 7.62x39 Ammo Bulk 22 LR Ammo Bulk Pistol Ammo Bulk Rifle Ammo Bulk Shotgun Ammo Handgun Ammo 9mm Ammo 380 Ammo 45 ACP Ammo 38 Special The 9mm is a typical government one-size-fits-all solution. I would challenge anyone to shoot a 9mm against my 45 and, I promise my 45 will be the 9mm all day everyday. You can either hit a target or not that simple. .45 acp is a good round and I prefer it used in close quarter environments becuse it is heavier and pack more energy. Sit back and take a deep breath and pray that if I am ever involved in a use of force criminal trial, pray like mad that this Marine is NOT called as an Expert Witness because I do not think there is enough toilet paper in a courthouse to clean up the mess this guy is going to make from his testimony. When fragmentation occurs, the permanent cavity expands rapidly and dramatically. The expansive quality of these rounds creates larger permanent cavities. Even later to the conversation but figured Id throw my ring in the hate. We can argue 9 vs 45. If these shootings have something in common, it is each and every one is different. The body's liver, pancreas and kidneys also can make about 1 gram of creatine per day. It normally doesnt do that with hollowpoints, either. Core, you touch on something that I have often thought about. the statement that a 9mm can carry more bullets. True. Thats because the 7.62 is almost twice as massive as a .223. WebOP you had it right for penetration, 7.62 > 9mm > .45. Also quoting from the Marine Corps Times: The arguments boil down to this: The .45-caliber round is the bigger bullet, so it has the knock down power to neutralize any adversary with one shot; while pistols that fire 9mm rounds are generally more accurate and can carry more bullets. I had a neighbor when I lived outside Fort Worth. You might be able to talk to the first guy. 3, both hemolymph ACP and AKP activities of P. clarkii were significantly decreased in the 30 and 50 mg/L groups compared to the control (P < 0.01).Similarly, PO activity also exhibited a significant reduction in the 30 mg/L group (P < 0.05) and the 50 mg/L group (P < 0.01), respectively.However, LZM activity showed a significant increase LE, south LA and Watts for 8 1/2 out of 15 years. Whatever happened to the body armor piercing 5.7 round- 20 in the mag, one in the pipe n if that aint enough, 30 round mag works great for me!!!! For example, a shot through the side of the body must penetrate between 10 to 12 inches to hit the heart. Well, depends on whom you ask. I own 9mm, .40 and .45. It has something to do with occasions where they might carry concealed: Since last year, MARSOC has purchased and fielded 1,654 Glock 19s because Raiders needed a reliable secondary weapon that could be used for both a concealed carry profile and a low-visibility profile, and having one approved pistol for all special operators saves money, he said. So, is the 9mm the ultimate handgun around? His chest was gurgling and slurping. The mechanism by which adamantinomatous craniopharyngioma (ACP) damages the hypothalamus is still unclear. 158 gr 0.357" Magnum semi-jacketed bullet will penetrate outside skin of car door and sometimes just penetrate the inside skin. The debate isnt settled. Be Safe Out There. They will simply leave their buddy there to die (and hopefully be able to take one of us with him). If a projectile has features that would cause it to expand upon impact, U.S. Army engineers Donald Carlucci and Sidney Jacobson explained in the textbook, Ballistics: Theory and Design of Guns and Ammunition. With this in mind, we will now explore handgun wounding factors. I like it and am very comfortable pulling the trigger in as high stress of a situation as training allows. There is a wide range of participants and many of them have never fired a gun of any kind. 9mm doesnt work so well one at a time from a pistol, but we didnt have any expectation that it would. What do you Think of the S&W Shield? Practice is key. I have read how the 124gr 9mm ammo used by NATO does not do its intended job. Copyright 2023 I am sorry for your incounter. I just make it my business to shoot all handgun cartridges well out to 25yards. and manufacturers. Keep in mind that fragmentation does sometimes occur, however, it cannot be relied upon. The argument about effectiveness, capacity, reliability, stopping power, etc has been going on as long as I remember, ad nauseum. It appears now we have had to Dumb Down our .45cal. I still did like the 39-2 for CC. Military ball ammo leaves some things to be desired. Wound-cavity analysis tells a similar story concerning the .380 ACP, with individuals shot by the round able to function seconds to minutes after being shot. Were they not the agency who got thier asses handed to them that created this debate in the first place? I have several. A lot. .4570, .454 Casull and .460 Super Mag are all tremendously powerful. Youll shoot how you train is one, but many dont train. This article will define what the question which handgun round has the best stopping power? means, and offer unbiased information that will help the readers to make up their own minds on the subject. EVER! If youve ever spent anytime shooting steel then you would know which one will take someone off their feet quicker. Now that has some stopping power and even at 600 yards. The slower 45acp round FMJ will pass through but leaving more energy expended plus a larger wound channel so the same to a lesser degree applies to the 45 acp FMJ; but, if you have 45acp JHP in the gun usually one hit whether it be in the shoulder, leg or chest area game over. 158 gr 0.38" Special plain lead bullet will generally not exit from a human body. Just came down from AK and bears and mad moose have been my biggest issue. People have walked off from head shot wounds from the venerable .45, .38 mag, etc. Just as in the case of the military, my agencies biggest determining factors for this decision were not anything to do with the performance of the rounds or the effectiveness for the safety of the officer. Wondering if these Marine special operators are not only allowed but required to carry exclusively the 15-round Glock 19, why not the slightly larger and higher capacity Glock 17? The money has to come from somewhere. I am a classic ). People have died from .22 LR in one shot. He came up in this world initially through his 8-year experience with a state-level law enforcement agency in Colorado. In the technical language of ballistics engineers, the standard unit of measurement for a bullets mass is grains of metal, and depending on the manufacturer, a .7.62 can weigh in at 125 grains. Small grip,,Low recoil,,, easy conceability One size does Not fit all. I have never fired a .45 but rarely find the grips comfortable when I pick them up. What makes the .223 potentially deadlier than the .22 is its velocity. Of course, smoothly drawing a handgun leads directly to another subject: which holster is best for those concerned with personal protection? In reaching this conclusion, the FBI appeared to give too little weight to the tissue-crushing ability of the larger projectiles (.40 S& W; .45 Auto). All rights reserved. You prefer the .45 for stopping power? I carry a s&w .357 airweight not fun to shoot due to recoil and sound. I trap and shoot most animals with a Browning 1911-22 now. AT 500 fps a 230 grains projectile would only have 127 foot pounds of energy leaving the muzzle. Project: Aftermath Wiki. Been involved in violent life or death confrontations for well over 40 years. The fifteen round magazine contributes to the spray and pray thinking while the 1911 makes one concentrate on placing the shot. career to carry a Glock 9mm. When a lot of agencies began switching to 9mm from .45 ACP and other heavier calibers, something became very apparent: the FMJ 9mm at high velocity tended Never held a weapon till boot camp. SS and Homeland couldnt be to aly wrong!!! Pistols are primarily used for close combat. I like all of them. Shot placement rules. 1996 responded to a domestic violence call shots fired. In my book Lethal Force and the Objectively Reasonable Officer, I point out that after the FBI shootout in Miami, the FBI Firearms Training Unit, under the leadership of Unit Chief John Hall, tested 9mm, 10mm and .45 caliber rounds. Talk to someone that has been shot with a 9mm FMJ round and ask them what it feels like and contrast that to someone that has been shot with a 45 ACP FMJ round.